Wednesday, January 23, 2008

Tales from Heroics: Problem Healing

Ran Heroic Mech tonight for some more badges and picked up three more so up to 31 Badges of Justice. I've ran Heroic Mech before quite a few times and it can be a short good fairly smooth run. Mostly I've had a Shaman or Priest or healer. Can't recall ever running with any other Healer, but a guildmate wanted to do Heroic Mech and I went along and we had 2 DPS from PuG's a Mage I knew well and a Holy Paladin I somewhat knew so rest was me a Warlock, Hunter (survival).

We did fine clearing everything with little problem, with exception of every so often I end up going face down before either the Tempest Forge Destroyer died or Boss died. That happened at least 5 times on the Tempest Forge Destroyers, once before the Mechano Boss and 4 times on the 2nd Destroyer in Nethermancer Sepethrea's room. That was damn frustrating to say the least. Almost seem we got stuck on that one Trash Destroyer. Enough that the Warlock dropped out and we picked up another Mage for his DPS spot. Popped a Greater Stoneshield Potion and we got him down in no time and seem like a piece of cake them. So I though what gives? I'm in my high block gear and at 491 defense, 13k armor and 323 blocking. I also died on Mechano-Lord Capacitus about 8 sec before he eventually died by the rest of the group. On every death me being the tank I was the one that died. One thing I can really say its a complete waste of consumables in elixirs totally. Can't say how much of those got wasted even though I'm a Alchemist and it don't cost me that much but it was still a waste all the same.

But anyway we got the last boss and the Sun Eater never dropped. I've never seen that thing ever drop ever. A few plate pieces dropped and a Epic legging piece I passed and let the Holy paladin pick it up. After the group wanted go back and try the Fire boss. I was a bit reluctant but if they wanted to give it a go, i'm for it. So we did. In the process both Mages died in the process and the Hunter got disconnected or something like that but was back a while after. So I ended up kiting the boss around and around in circles down to less that 10k health with the healer and eventually died. That was the best attempt especially considering the other dps died early, actually best attempt ever. We tried 2 more attempts again and just did not work. We called it at that point especially since I needed to repair with about 8% durability.

On checking Recount to see why I died noticed something. On every encounter in which I died that Recount showed I died from not enough healing or not being healed fast enough. The only heals I saw recorded was Holy Light heals. In a 12 sec period of time on several encounters I went from 12-13k health to 0 with one and no more than 2 Holy Light heal. Often It was just one heal I noticed on every death. At no time did I ever notice a Flash of Light heal and I can't say I noticed any of them either as they were all big heals thus my spiky healing. The Holy Paladin is for the most part a raiding Holy Paladin. Personally I hate going face down and especially repeatedly for the same thing. I've noticed this on the entire run that my healing at best was pretty damn spiky. Made me blew my Lay of Hands right at the start of Heroic Instance on the first Destroyer due to spiky heals with less than 200hp. Now I've never done any instance healing. But as the tank I've had many healers Priests, Shamans and to a lesser extend Druids just a few times. But I'm like where the hell is the Flash heals? Every heal the Holy Paladin threw was what seemed like a Holy Light heal and that ended up costing me a total of 8 deaths and 92% durability on armor when I left the instance.

I've being having this problem before not with ALL but with many of the Holy Paladin healers I've had in Heroics when I'm getting hit like a asteroid. I can honestly say I'm not a big fan running with a Holy Paladin in Heroics as my first choice. Yet I know there are some good Holy Paladin healers out there, but what the hell gives when ALL your getting on the tank is Holy Light heals. I'm waiting forever to get healed at deaths door. Every time I died the healer had way more than 3/4 bar full of mana and he had over 10k mana at that. I'm dead in the time it takes to get healed in situations like this. Frustrating to me it is. Healing efficiency my ass it aren't no good when the damn tank is dead waiting forever to get healed. And it don't look well the next time I think about doing Heroics when I see its a Plate Healer because I will always have my doubts of how long will it be before I'm face down when I'm doing my damn best to stay alive. So what gives with healing like that?

26 comments:

estelito.iii said...

A holy paladin who doesn't how to interweave flash heals/holy shock in between holy light casts definitely should be reviewing his heal rotation.

Maybe the holy paladin was so used to tanking a warrior or druid wherein they obviously got more life than most paladin tanks i've been with.

2nd wipe on tempest destroyers should have been the signal to find another healer. lol.

Scribbl said...

Holy Paladin healing is Flash of Light interwoven with Rank 4/5 Holy Light to keep the cast time down on the Rank 10/11 when you need it as an "Oh no!" button.

And Holy Shock as a quick 600 HP when you have mana to burn ;)

That's Holy healing.

Sorry you've met such rubbish Paladin healers. Good ones exist.

HolyWarrior said...

just what scribble said.

I didn't want to say anthing in the comments on you last post because I think you said it was a guildie paladin.

But if this was the same paladin and he is raiding with your guild, then you seriosuly need to speak to the pally class leader.

I'm sorry to say it, but that is one crap paladin. :(

Galoheart said...

This is a different Holy Paladin healer from another guild. This is not the same Holy Paladin from my guild. Though have had issues with that healer too on one Heroic run.

Augustian said...

Flash of light doesn't hit hard at all. I have decent gear sitting at 1200 healing and I can't keep up a tank on an underbog lord for my life.

I think ur healer was probably alt-tabbing to see something online instead and just not there during the pull.

Anonymous said...

Just a comment regarding something I haven't seen reflected elsewhere.

My wife's got a holy Paladin and is quite good at it, having healed my main (Warrior tank) through several Heroics and Karazhan on numerous occassions.

One evening we went to Mech Heroic with a Paladin tank - I went there on my Hunter to DPS instead.

The Paladin tank was taking so much damage that Flash of Light simply wasn't providing the required healing, even when spammed. In short, she had to resort to spamming Holy Light.

Your Paladin healer may have experienced exactly the same. Having a chat with the healer's the only way to find out and change it.

Honors Code said...

I had no clue Recount could get to that level of detail.

This was not a case of you taking more damage than a Warrior, but the case of a Healer asleep at the wheel.

Look at the first report you linked, for 18:30:40. You went from 100% to 0% in 4.55 seconds. In that time not 1 heal landed.

Holy Light has a 2.5 second cast time. You should have received at least 1 if not 2 Holy Lights during that time.

The Destroyer also has gained Charged Fist, that really ups the damage they do. When they get that your healer really has to crank up the healing on you. It's a great time for a Divine Favor Holy Light combo.

You also got a Knockdown which meant you couldn't dodge, parry, or block.

In the second report, we have you go from 68% health to 0 in 3.61 seconds. Again, not one Holy Light landed during that time.

I'd remember that Healer and not run with him again. Hopefully, he'll be in next battleground I'm in.

ASA said...

speaking from experience, ive healed that heroic and dpsed that heroic and tanked that heroic. and its a tough one to tank for pallys bc of Charged Fist, it hurts, alot and its nice if you have a warrior to pummel (sorry im sure i spelled that incorrectly)but yes the healer should have been mixing all their heals not just holy light. flash of light heals are insane when spammed.

Anonymous said...

While the healer should have gotten off a heal, there are some other things your party could do. Don't let the Destroyers gain Charged Fist. It is very difficult to heal through on heroic with a pre-Kara geared tank.

Put the 2 mages on rotation and have them counterspell the cast WHILE it is casting. With 2 mages, I usually HoJ the first cast and then get the mages to CS.

Try to get more block value. I like to have closer to 450 for heroics, sometimes >500.

Don't be afraid to sacrifice a little armor for BV. At heroic level damage, BV will almost always mitigate more damage.

dorgol said...

I have nothing more to add. Everyone above said it.

I salute you for sticking with the group though. Can't tell you how many times I've seen PuGs fall aparts after 2 wipes.

Vykor said...

As a priest I have lost tanks on Heroics. You are one heal behind and it all goes pear-shaped. Fight that same fight, with better focus and the tank doesn't go below 50% and your tank finishes the fight at full health.

If the tank dies first it is the healers fault, if the healer dies first it is the tanks fault. This is overly simple but often rings true.

My guess was that your healer was going for max efficiency. The longer heals giving more health per mana than flash. But what is the point of having 500 more mana than you would have but your tank is down.

So you met an inexperienced or under geared healer. I am sure that they will be better next time.


Name names and let's look at their gear....

gt said...

I have been really upping the amount of Heroics, running KZ, and things I do lately and I have to say for every single Holy Paladin that reads up and learns to play his class properly there are 3 more who think they are are Rogue and only have to jam three buttons repeatedly. Starting the fight with a downranked HL to bring up Light's Grace early... keeping up the FoL constantly regardless of overhealing and knowing when to pop Divine Inspiration early and often are things that don't seem to occur to many Healbots.

I feel like too many people roll a Holy Paladin to have an "easy mode heal" character. Plate feels safe to them. Also less fancy healing tricks (no HoTs etc) to them means less ways too mess up while it actually can mean many many more.

Not to mention not having the common sense to stay out of Heroics till your +heal and mp5 is appropriate.

Don't hate us all Galo. :)

SuraBear said...

Ok, I'm not a paladin healer, but I was under the impression that FLASH of light was the mana efficient spell (Max HPM), and HOLY light was the spell with the punch (Max HPS). . .

Sounds to me like this healer was using the right spell, but didn't know how to spam/cancel cast.

Vykor said...

@Surabear. Yes see what you mean about Flash being more mana efficient than Holy light. Quite a change from priest healing, where the longer the duration of the heal the more efficient it is.

HolyWarrior said...

Yep, Flashes are the opposite of Priest flashes.

Mana Efficiency wise:
Priest. spam big heals and use a flash as a panic button.

Pally. Spam Flashes. HL is panic button. Holy Shock in a real "OH Sh*t" situation

Katiya said...

A lot of healers still get hung up on mana efficiency - chances are he was waiting for you to take the damage and then cast the heal so as not to waste healing. Most likely he wasn't factoring the risk of spike damage which the destroyers are known for.

Whenever we run Mech we always seek to interrupt the charge fist ability of the destroyers as it will do impressive spike damage if it lands - to nearly any tanks (ours are tanking SSC and the spike damage from charged fist still gives you pause).

Paladins really should be spamming FoL like crazy and hitting the Holy Light button when the damage gets away from you. Chances are in 25 man raiding he has adopted a different style of healing that works for his group.

Unfortunately all I can say is that if your experience with this healer is so bad - don't group with him again.

When people say paladin healing is 2 buttons - this is the result. The good paladin healers are the ones who understand what all the other buttons are for.

Salud said...

Before I pass judgment, I am curious to know what the healer was doing during those time frames. (healing other teammates, OOM, lagging, etc).

Galoheart said...

Na don't hate Holy Paladins I just like the good healing ones allot more. I can say a charged fist hurts and getting knockdown is rough because almost nothing I as the paladin can do when it happens as I can't really block I'd dodge and spells appear to get locked when it happens. A few time I've gotten back to back knockdown that I've had happened too but not every time on 5 attempts. I'm also one not to quit on a fight on a mob I've beaten countless times before in heroic mech.

The healer only had one person to heal and that being me the tank. On ever encounter the Destroyer back was turned to the group so it wasnt even facing the group. So healer only had to worry about healing one person. As to what healer was doing who knows. As the tank I'm busy enough tanking, getting knockdown and doing my job and watching my health. I don't tell the healer how to do his job or tell the Mage how to do theirs. I'm doing my job at 150% effort. However on the last attempt when we got him down with total ease and I was almost on full health when the destroyer went down. Only 2 things I did different one being to pressure the healer NOT to let me die and also using a stoneshield potion just for added security in the attempt. I'm not sure if the mages did anything else different. But I can tell you in that attempt the healing was much much better and when mob went down I had more than about 80% health. Was it the added pressure on the healer dunno, I've never healed so I can't say. I only Tank but the healing was better because if I dropped it would of being on him...again.

There are good healers out there I know many, was he just not using a good healing rotation dunno, was he asleep 5 times dunno, did he not anticipate the damage I was taken with the charged fists and knockdown dunno, but on multiple times one has to think I'm loosing the tank because of something in the healing. However do appreciate the comments though from each point of view as each person has said. I'm not one to quit a group on a fight. I can say ill always be the last person standing on a run in the instance when everyone has left, quit or gone. Just the way I am. But it always nice to have good healers that keep the tank up. So on the end I just can't say. A different healer in the future and not that one I would say it will be.

Besides that

Eerc said...

Yep looks like a lot of the skills mentioned, well have been.

I know that as a pally you can interupt at least 1 of the Charged Fist. Mages can Counter Spell, Rogues are a good choice or if you have a Fury Warrior. That area is much easier.

I need to get this mod these screen shots are from. That should help me out also. The idea of Sheild Block value, I need to apply to myself also.

Alystira said...

Well, I can say I've healed and tanked heroic Mech numerous times and have come away successfully. Except for the fire boss (Sepethrea I think) who is still a pain. The hardest part of Mech in my eyes is getting through the Destroyers. Charged Fist slams the ground 3-5 times for 2k arcane damage per slam (6k damage). Simply put if the charged fist is not stopped it will be very taxing on your healer. You as a Pally can use hammer of justice to stop 1 charge, a rogue can use kidney shot, cheap shot and kick, a mage can counterspell, etc. Set up a rotation on stopping charged fist.

As a pally healer in here it's all about the downranked Holy Lights. I have HoL rank 4 - 11 and max Flash of Light set up on my quick bar (#'s 1 - 9, etc.) So I find myself usually tapping HoL 4 for mana efficiency and to get Light's Grace up (which reduces my HoL cast time from 2.5 seconds to 1.5 seconds) and then spamming FoL. When Light's Grace is about to where off I will cast another HoL rank 4 or higher if the situation calls for it.

Bottom line is in any heroic I don't care which one it is, a paladin healer cannot wait until he sees that the tank needs a heal as there simply is not enough time. You need to be proactive and be casting before the tank gets hit so that heal will come off right on time. If you see that the tank is ok and doesn't need the big heal you are casting then you can simply cancel it by jumping or moving forward. In my mind, a good healer will always be in mid-cast when the party is engaging.

Zerei said...

Not much more to say here, except maybe to not be afraid to offer advice. Since you too are a paladin, it won't come off as quite so much an "L2P" comment and actually sound like you mean well. Hopefully anyway. Not like how it usually goes when a rogue tries to offer advice to a warlock or something, anyway...it doesn't come off as sincere or informed unless it is very carefully worded.

Recount is an awesome addon for post-analysis. My computer has problems with it sometimes though, where something goes nuts and I get like 0.25 fps until I restart the game and turn the mod off. :(

Keiya said...

Oh yar, sure sounds like your healer was asleep at the wheel. You didn't receive a single heal other than from the trinket, not even a FoL lol...I've ran Mech with healadins and have healed it several times as well. The good ones know how to anticipate damage preemptively heal.

If you have a mage/rogue in your group, they really do need to be on their toes about interrupting charged fist. It helps a LOT. Noticed that a lot of people either don't realize that it can be interrupted or just aren't paying attention. If the knockdown is an issue, arranging some sort of stun rotation isn't a bad idea.

J.P. said...

If you cant tank a heroic with a Pally healer you fail. A Shaman can tank with a Shaman or Priest healer. You met a challenge and failed now want to bash your own class. My opinion of you has dropped. How are you even a Paladin and have never healed? You should have put that healer in the correct place after the first wipe. By not knowing your own class you continued to cost your whole team deaths a repairs. I guess you figured out which tree takes the most skill now didnt you? It sure as heck isnt meat shield.

Galoheart said...

@J.P

I not sure where your coming from with your comments or if you really read my post or the comments after properly either. My post is not a "QQ" or never have I ever done a "QQ" post on this blog. My post is simple state what happened and with the healing in this circumstances and put it out there for comments.

At least i have enough GUTS to post what happened whether good or bad. Do you? And no I can tank Heroic Mech just fine as i have run Heroic Mech quite a few times and stated it as such. Have i run Heroic Mech with a Holy Paladin before not before this. And thats by just pure luck because more than half the time all my runs are PuGs so its not like i pick and choose healers. I take what i get often enough and run with whatever healer i get. I dare say that takes guts to just about PuG everything and thats not running away from a challenge!

I also don't bash my Class (Paladin) and never have I ever have. So i'm not sure where you come from there on that. There is a big difference in having issues with a specific healer and once class as a whole. So if i have issue with a specific healer that happens to be the same class as i am does it mean i hate my class? Do you not think i even realize he is the same class as i am. I'm all to well aware of it and before i even posted. I don't hate my class or any of the trees in my class. I read and learn from plenty of Holy Paladins on their blogs so i'm not sure how you can think i may be close minded in some way to my various class specs.

Now you say How am I a Paladin that have never healed. Again did you read what i said correctly. Here is what i said: "Now I've never done any instance healing". Allot different than what you think i said. Also if you ever read that blog you would also know my Paladin is dedicated Tank and have spec'd in one tree his entire life. Hence i never have done any healing duty or instance healing. Yes i have healed my self and healed others in emergency. But if you read here before you also know I don't play healer.

You also said i should put the healer in the correct place after the first wipe. Well you and i think very different here. People make mistakes and can make mistakes. I'm willing to give someone or group member the benefit of the doubt when crap happens. If its your opinion i fire the healer at first sign of trouble then i have more guts in failing than you are because i'm not a quitter nor do i abandon my groups. Maybe you will, but i don't.

I did talk to the healer and i did show the healer the recount log after deciding to look at Recount to see what log it had. Do i look at it all the time when i die, No. But when something happens enough time you look for clues to answers. In which case i did. And when i noticed the either lack of or slow healing I /w the healer the Recount log for him to see it. I also did let the group know about the damage i was taking and with the knockdown. So yes i made the group aware if they weren't aware themselves. At least i had the logs to look at and at least i had the screenshots to post it later for feedbacks. So if its your opinion i wasn't trying to do all i could, well i did. But i can't help your opinion thats your opinion.

I know how to play my class in how i play my class day in day out. I'm a Protection Paladin, I'm not a Healing or Holy Paladin nor am I a Retribution Paladin. In case you forget that, each class spec plays very different and with with very different knowledge to play properly. So i know my class for the SPEC that i play. Playing the CLASS SPEC i play has nothing to do with choosing it for skill. I play the spec i play because i love to wield a sword and shield and play defensively. Thats being stated here on this blog since my very first blog post.

So to J.P if anyone seem to be "QQing" here its seems to be you.

Halad said...

Honestly you are likely just barely geared enough to tank a heroic mechanar. did you hammer of justice as you were dying/during charged fist cast? Ask for a stun and kite the mob during the spell? Instead of using avenging wrath, you could have used Divine Shield and taunted immediately off the person who got aggro, then cancelled your shield after taunt wears off...

Beyond, that realize that a good paladin healer should be precasting holy lights against destroyers. Using flash of light is mostly pointless. I have healed many raids/heroics with no problem by prehealing with HL. Honestly eve nif the paladin had spammed 2.0 HL's on you, its not likely he could keep up with what appears to be 2804 damage per second taken from charged fist+autoattack. In the case where you seem to not have dodged/parried/missed at all you still would eventually be losing hit points as max rank HL with no crits is only providing something like 2-2.2khp/sec and will quickly oom your healer.

Long story short, not likely to be the healers fault. Get more armor/BV/hp. 12k HP against 5.6k HP hits doesnt leave much margin for error on a healer's part. A bad parry could easily send you to the floor at this mitigation/hp level.

Galoheart said...

I would say my gear is fine for Heroics. Can utbe better yes, but I would have to be just about in T4 and better or wearing gear from Badges of Justice. Also my armory gear is my standard tanking gear. It is neither my Heroic highblock gear set nor is it my complete Uncrushable set. Do carry many pieces of gear in bag so when doing Heroics I switch into my Heroic gear set which has almost the same or close exact HP and Armor but lot higher Block Value and Block Rating.

Ive used Hammer of Justice when I could get it off in time. Did I get it off every single time I could no I can't say that, but I know I was just as busy doing something like managing global cooldown in between casting spells. When you get hit by the destroyers combo there is a period of a few seconds where you can neither Block, Parry or Dodge anything that it will hit you with next which will be rough for the hit. Either way will be more prepared to anticipate it next time as well as having the healer be aware of what to do.